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Posted by Max Haltermann on 12/16/06 21:39
"Little Red Hen" <whodunnit@mysteryl.com> wrote in message
news:CtRgh.9183$HU.2876@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "Max Haltermann" <maxhalt@hugonet.com.au> wrote in message
> news:em0kvs$5kp$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au...
>>
>> "Little Red Hen" <whodunnit@mysteryl.com> wrote in message
>> news:RMLgh.9042$HU.92@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Max Haltermann wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When I make a DVD from a Winfast2000H DTVcapture card
>>>>>>>>>>> the playback from a stand alone DVD player to a 68cm 4:3 TV is
>>>>>>>>>>> about 20%
>>>>>>>>>>> smaller than the TV's screen. [i.e., there
>>>>>>>>>>> all black borders on all sides of the picture]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How does the original captured signal look on a computer? Does it
>>>>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>>>>> have the black bars there? (Is the original signal in 12P16
>>>>>>>>>> format?) Yes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the pointer re aspect ratio terms.
>>>>>>>>> As I wrote in my first posting, the transmitted signal of all
>>>>>>>>> local
>>>>>>>>> DTV
>>>>>>>>> stations has 4:3 images embedded in a 16:9 transmission. Format
>>>>>>>>> 12P16
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> VideoRedo File info says 16:9 and image 720:576 (normal PAL
>>>>>>>>> format).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This makes sense for the DTV stations, as this way they provide
>>>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>>>> main
>>>>>>>>> aspect ratios for the end user. The end user selects 4:3 or 16:9
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> the set top
>>>>>>>>> box this, as I see it, sets the correct parameters for the DIGITAL
>>>>>>>>> TO ANALOG DECODER.
>>>>>>>>> In other words, the analog image in the right format and
>>>>>>>>> dimensions
>>>>>>>>> for display on a TV screen is created outside the digital
>>>>>>>>> environment.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So the question still is: How can one get a full hight and full
>>>>>>>>> width 4:3 display from
>>>>>>>>> the raw digital TV transmissions on to DVD or onto a TV screen,
>>>>>>>>> seeing there is no D/A conversion or decoding involved?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Max.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> See here for an explanation of the formats and their names:
>>>>>>>>>> <http://google.com/groups?selm=a96fma$kj6$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> znark
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Max I assume you have a 4:3 TV or Monitor? Either way in making a
>>>>>>>> DVD
>>>>>>>> you need to change the flag in the ifo files to tell the DVD player
>>>>>>>> to present a full screen presentation during playback. If the ifo
>>>>>>>> file has letterbox ticked as well as pan an scan you will get the
>>>>>>>> so-called postage stamp view., ie black all around the 4:3 image.
>>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>>> friend has the same card as you and I have the Dvico HDTV card and
>>>>>>>> my Topfield PVR5000. Al I do is edit the captured file and then
>>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>> a DVD (to harddisk) then edit the ifo files and then burn using
>>>>>>>> Nero.
>>>>>>>> As I said in my other post it takes all of 20 seconds to make the
>>>>>>>> edit in IFOEdit. Then all my DVD's ex Oz DTV that are 4:3 aspect
>>>>>>>> ratio playback full screen on my 4:3 TV with no black borders and
>>>>>>>> full vertical screen with black bars either side on my 16:9 LCD.
>>>>>>>> Just like a bought one!!!!!
>>>>>>> That would be beaut if it worked in my case!!!
>>>>>>> I got IFOEdit, ran it fiddled with it, said duhh a few times, (I'm
>>>>>>> 72
>>>>>>> and battling a bit
>>>>>>> with HiTec). Anyway eventually I found the lines of text in the
>>>>>>> IFOedit display, which, when clicked on, produced this window in
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>> the settings can be altered.
>>>>>>> After some drama I got those files to look as below:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) VIDEO_TS.IFO file:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Video Manager Menu attributes:
>>>>>>> video: MPEG-2 720x576 (PAL) (PAL 625/50) (4:3) (pan-scan)
>>>>>>> Title set 1:
>>>>>>> VTS_1 Video: MPEG-2 720x576 (PAL) (PAL 625/50) (4:3)
>>>>>>> (pan-scan)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) VTS_01_0.IFO file:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Title set (Movie) attributes:
>>>>>>> Video: MPEG-2 720x576 (PAL) (PAL 625/50) (4:3) (pan-scan)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Only thing wrong with this is, that the movie even on the pc monitor
>>>>>>> still does not
>>>>>>> reach edge to edge, instead it has a thick black border all around.
>>>>>>> I don't like to give up but?????????
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Max.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something is not right there Max, the frame size should be 16:9 as
>>>>>> Australian DTV for ALL transmissions are 16:9 regardless of content.,
>>>>>> the stations don't transmit aspect ratio flags.
>>>>>> So if 4:3 is ticked instead of 16:9 in IFOEdit that is probably the
>>>>>> cause of the problem unless there is something you may have selected
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> your editing program to edit the mpeg file off the TV card.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take another look in IFOEdit and change any instances of 4:3 to 16:9
>>>>>> (doesn't matter for the menu attributes) but make sure the video info
>>>>>> is PAL and 16:9.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What pan and scan in the ifo file is to tell the DVD player to expand
>>>>>> the image to fit the 4:3 TV you have so what this means in effect the
>>>>>> side black bars 'fall off the screen' and you have a fullscreen 4:3
>>>>>> image.
>>>>>> On the Topfield 5000 there is a button that is called centre cut that
>>>>>> does the same thing on live transmissions as indeed most STB's.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> an example from a SBS Doco, actual film 4:3
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Video: MPEG-2 720x576 (PAL) (PAL 625/50) (16:9) (pan-scan)
>>>>>
>>>>> This had to be it! Well maybe, but not quite.
>>>>> Getting into IFOEdit once more I got it to display exactly as per your
>>>>> sample above.
>>>>> The monitor screen image still looked wrong though. So I burned to
>>>>> RW-DVD and tested on the player and TV.
>>>>>
>>>>> Set to 16:9 the image was just as before: black border all four sides.
>>>>> Image in correct proportion.
>>>>> 4:3 and 4:3 letterbox image is far too wide but with top and bottom
>>>>> having thick black bar.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just to ensure my test dvd file isn't corrupted I will capture a new
>>>>> lot,
>>>>> SBS2 is mostly 4:3 transmission, and go through all again.
>>>>> Wish me luck, please.
>>>>>
>>>>> Max.
>>>>> P.S. Any possibility of a conventional handle like Bob or Pete or Max?
>>>>>
>>>> Ewen will do just fine
>>
>> Hi Ewen,
>>
>>> Is this the model you have?
>>
>>> http://www.leadtek.com.tw/eng/tv_tuner/overview.asp?lineid=6&pronameid=252
>>>
>> Yes, that's the one.
>>
>>> Are you sure you are recording from the digital tuner and not the analog
>>> tuner?
>>
>> Most definitely. SBS2 is very difficult to capture with an analog tuner
>> :)
>>
>> And for a change I have got good news. :))
>>
>> The fresh capture gave exactly the same result, but after editing
>> VTS_01_0.IFO
>> as you suggested the DVD-RW burned had full screen display.
>>
>> As to early problem movie I joined all VOB files, as I didn't have the
>> original
>> any more. Processed it to DVD folder, edited IFO files and got a somewhat
>> wide image with black bar top and bottom. Vertically slightly squashed,
>> but
>> far better than the tiny image I had before.
>> So thanks, Ewen. Also thanks to znark and Jukka Aho
>> (I hope I got that right)
>>
>> There is of course still the question of 'Direct Burn to DVD'
>> I think the software is lacking there by not allowing to set 4:3 burns.
>> After all there would only need to be one box to be ticked to set a flag
>> to ensure Pan-Scan in the IFO file is ON.
>>
>> As it is now, I would have a good case to return the card because of
>> incorrect advertizing, after all on the box it just says:
>> "Direct Burn: Capture video directly from TV signal or external video
>> devices - saving both time and valuable Hard-drive space."
>> There is no mention of only a rather small picture when capturing
>> 4:3 movies.
>> I exchanged 3 emails with Leadtek, where I suggested there should
>> be a software solution. Their answer was basically over and over, that
>> their software capture files as they are transmitted and that is that.
>>
>> Cheers all,
>> Max.
>
>
> Max you will find all cards give much the same result, my Dvico HDTV
> produces either a TP file or an MPEG file and you still have to edit the
> ifo file before burning if the source material is 4:3 as transmitted by
> Australian TV stations. The problem is with our standards and not the
> capture. If the stations switched flags according to source material this
> would, I think, fix the problem but it would introduce other problems I'm
> sure. With my Topfield I select "centre cut' which expands the postage
> stamp 4:3 to fill my 4:3 TV.
> On my LCD 16:9 of course I have black bars either side but that's the way
> it should be. Personally I would rather burn to harddisk first than do it
> on the fly to disk that way I have control and that goes with my
> personality!!!! I'm a bit fixed in my 70 year old ways... Ewen
Ewen, I realize that all digital cards may give similar results, but
Australia has
certain marketing rules regarding fitness for purpose.
And as you say, you CAN set your Topfield, and I can set my Opentel
set top box for 4:3. The problem is not with Australia, the problem is with
software designers not getting the message. With all countries who use PAL,
I doubt that we are the only ones to embed 4:3 in 16:9 transmissions. It is
a low cost solution and I am sure there are many other places on this globe
that have to count their pennies, cents, drachmas, rubles or yens :)
Any time I expect to keep a DVD I'd want to create titles, chapters and
print on the disc as well. But there are lots of programs I watch once or
twice and then wipe the disc for re-use. And as I said earlier, they print
it
on the box it'd better work.
Problem is, my location does not give very good analog reception, digital
has been sold to us as being the answer to all our problems, so that's what
I expect. I know I'll be really old and grey, but hope should not falter :)
:)
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