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Posted by Steve King on 11/19/07 17:18
"Pre-Meltdown" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote in message
news:T1j0j.6$sU5.5@newsfe08.lga...
>
> "Richard Crowley" <rcrowley@xp7rt.net> wrote in message
> news:13k2ahskl516mc0@corp.supernews.com...
>> "Pre-Meltdown" wrote ...
>>> And indeed, not just "watchable on youtube", but an instructional dvd to
>>> be supplied with a product
>>
>> Look at some comparable instructional videos for similar
>> (exercise, etc.) products. Even late-nite infomercials, etc. if you
>> don't have access to any examples of comparable instructional
>> videos. I am quite confident in saying that NONE of them
>> were produced with "webcam" type cameras. Have you ever
>> used a conventional camcorder? Do you appreate the very
>> substantial difference between a "real" camera and a "webcam"?
>>
>>> I'm just on the verge of bringing to market, which is an exercise/rehab
>>> device for, among many other things, quickly stretching/rehab-ing bad
>>> backs--not every bad back, of course, but a surprising number of them.
>>> I developed/make this unit in a full machine shop I have downstairs.
>>> Nicely machined product, a rarity in today's retail market.
>>
>> Perhaps off-topic for this newsgroup but if it is hand-machined
>> in your basement, is it commercially viable as a mass-market
>> product? I love hand-machining things in my garage, but have
>> no delusion that they could be commercially marketed with
>> that much hand-work. If this is intended for actual rehab
>> with the intent of remedying a medical condition, doesn't that
>> make it a "medical device" and subject to strict FDA rules?
>> Perhaps not something you need to answer here, but likely
>> something you will have to deal with somewhre along the line.
>>
>>> The unit permanently installs in a doorway, which is mocked up in the
>>> middle of a 5-600 sq ft studio (8' ceilings) upstairs, so the video
>>> would be shot around this doorway, front, back, left, right.
>>> This studio/video equipment will be permanent, and likely not moved from
>>> this location.
>>
>> I don't understand either of your assumed predelictions:
>>
>> 1) Why "permanent" how many of these videos do you think
>> you will be making? Are you going into the video making
>> business in addition to making your exercise/rehab device?
>>
>> 2) How did you arrive at multiple cameras and post-production
>> editing? I am also quite confident in saying that NO comparable
>> videos were produced this way. And for very good reason. They
>> were virtually all done in a conventional "film-production style"
>> where a single camera was used, optimally placed, lighted, etc,
>> and then several takes, perhaps at different zooms, etc. were
>> put onto tape before moving to the next (scripted) camera
>> position.
>>
>>> I reasoned that since turn-key surveillance systems with up to eight
>>> cameras can be viewed simultaneously on one partitioned monitor, that
>>> several cameras could stream their images via a suitable program, from
>>> which I could then grab whatever view was the best for that particular
>>> demo/instruction.
>>> I gather this strategy does *not* extend to production video?
>>
>> I gather you have not seen very many surveillence videos?
>> Even full-screen ones are often too fuzzy to even get a good
>> identification of the suspects. Despite the fiction you see
>> every week on CSI.
>>
>>> I assumed that this could also be done straight into the computer, altho
>>> I guess it doesn't really matter whether the playback is from the
>>> computer's HD or from the camcorder's themselves.
>>> The point being, RE the "ISO" you mentioned:
>>>
>>> Yes, I would like to have multiple cameras just running, and LATER be
>>> able to select the best footage from the various vantage points.
>>
>> From this, I gather that you have no video production experience.
>> Nothing wrong with this, nobody started out with such knowledge.
>> If you insist on your multiple webcam/surveillence camera scheme,
>> I predict that you will end up spending hundreds (thousands?) of
>> $$$ and end up with nothing usable to show for it.
>>
>>> With sufficient field of view on each camera to cover my motion
>>> within/about the doorway. I was hoping to be able to play back all the
>>> footage simultaneously, to make selection easier.
>>> Realistic, in a real-life video world?
>>
>> Not in my opinion.
>>
>>> Since I will be starting all this from scratch (new everything), I don't
>>> have a program in mind, and could use suggestions along those lines as
>>> well.
>>> I've seen Pinnacle and Premier demo'd at B&H in Manhattan, but don't
>>> really grok their full capabilities. The simpler the program the better,
>>> for now.
>>>
>>> You mentioned "very capable mini-DV camcorders" for 2-3x a webcam. What
>>> might some of these be, ito general brands/models, and what ballpark
>>> price range?
>>> And where would one find a reliable/objective evaluation of these and
>>> other products?
>>
>> Do you not have any friends with camcorders? Borrow one and
>> compare it to any "webcam" or surveillence camera you wish. After
>> doing a side-by-side comparison, I think you will quickly recant of
>> your fascination with multiple webcams.
>>
>>> I will be setting up from scratch (new computer, lighting, mics,
>>> software, etc.), and as MG mentioned ito of bang for my buck, would
>>> basically like spend the minimum (for now, to get started, at least),
>>> with the best bang/buck, hopefully in a way that can be upgradeable.
>>> In essence, a basic but serviceable studio for these demos.
>>> I'll have to spend whatever I gotta spend, and hopefully not wind up
>>> homeless. :)
>>
>> Buy a $500 mini-DV camcorder. Be sure to get one with a
>> microphone input jack and a headphone jack. I most strongly
>> recommend against your multiple-webcam scheme.
>>
>>> I'm not against the idea of a consultant, but would sort of like to get
>>> my feet wet first, and maybe get a little income stream in first, so I
>>> can get to the "next level".
>>
>> With a reasonable camcorder, sufficient lighting and TIME, you
>> could shoot enough video to edit together an acceptable video.
>> Have you written a script for this project? Do you have any kind
>> of urgent deadline for this video? It may take several months to
>> get things set up to produce halfway-decent video. Your 8-foot
>> ceilings may pose a problem trying to light things properly.
>>
>>> This will also be an ongoing project, with a regular output of
>>> instructional dvds for a variety of machined products.
>>
>> All the more reason to forget your "fixed installation" scheme
>> as inflexible and unworkable in the long-term.
>>
>>> Again, I can start real basic, but would like to do it in a way where I
>>> can also expand/upgrade without scrapping what I've already bought.
>>> Wishful thinking??
>>
>> Everything you tell us lobbies AGAINST your multiple fixed-
>> location webcame scheme.
>>
>>> Looking for "decent" quality, but not for any prizes in a film festival.
>>>
>>> One last Q:
>>> What is the difference between this ng and rec.video.desktop? What
>>> types of Qs are more suitable there, vs here?
>>
>> Theoretically, this newsgroup (r.v.p) is targetted at "production"
>> or the process of shooting, and the r.v.d is targetted at post-
>> production (editing). But in reality, there is a very large amount
>> of crossover. Your own situation is a perfect example.
>
> Well, I had given up the webcam idea after your first response!
> My second response was intended along the lines of multiple camcorders.
> And, by "permanent", I didn't mean "bolted down to the floor", just that
> all the filming/production would be in one studio space, not going from
> location to location.
>
> After to talking to B&H this morning, the multiple camcorder idea does
> seem to be impractical.
> Don't really understand *why* it's so impractical, but I'm in no position
> to be a maverick here. :)
> B&H basically said, if you have $10K, go pro (and stay traditional!).
> If you want to get by for well under $5K, go consumer. But still use
> mini-DV tape, as you suggested.
>
> So, they recommended a $500 Sony that is good in low light, maybe an $800
> Panasonic, that would give nice results for what I need right now.
> Any specific camera recs/comments here would be appreciated.
>
> Any user-friendly editing systems, for basic stuff?
> AVSmedia claims their editing package is super-user friendly, and offer a
> "super-bundle" of products at http://www.avsmedia.com/.
> Good bundle? Good way to get started? Other suggestions?
>
> Oh, btw, my little operation here is a bit more than "hand machining in a
> basement".
> The equipment I have (both CNC and manual), in about 1200 sq ft, is more
> than capable of putting out 100's of units a week, altho I'm the first to
> admit that this proly isn't the smartest way to go.
> But I will have no choice but to do the first few hundred myself, before I
> farm it out to professional production shops.
>
> In the same vein, I need to set up a basic video operation, to get the
> overall "direction" correct, and then I'd be more than happy to let
> professionals set up an efficient studio and produce a professional
> product. I'm hoping the 5-600 sq ft studio space, which will house the
> editing operation as well (altho that could be moved), will be sufficient.
>
> Right now, I'm producing beta versions of the unit, but which still need
> dvds, as the method of using the hardware/apparatus is as important as the
> apparatus itself.
> No looming deadline, just the sooner the better.
>
> It will indeed be ongoing video production, as the apparatus has so many
> extensive uses, which vary with the niche: Professional/ballet dancers,
> athletes, simple fitness/weightloss (which actually is not so simple,
> mis-infomercials notwithstanding), joint rehab, back rehab,
> sports-specific applications, etc.
>
> Looking forward to getting the video part up and running. Appreciate the
> feedback and guidance.
> --
I've been following this thread. Richard is giving you very good advice.
Since you seem to be set on doing the video yourself, which would not be my
recommendation by the way, I would suggest that you invest in an experienced
writer to provide a script. He or she will help you craft the story for
your product along with helping you to determine the visual images that will
be required to produce an engaging and informative video. You will learn a
lot through this process. In response to the writer's questions you will
make decisions about the production that probably would never occur to you
on your own. Your thoughts on the best way to talk about your product in a
video will change several times before you are done.
My company has produced many product introduction videos. In so doing we
often work with very smart engineers and marketing people. Their ideas on
what their video should look like and the story it should tell undergo
remarkable changes as they work with our writers and producers. Many of
their ideas, such as your multi-camera approach, are simply impractical or
way more expensive than necessary. Creating a script will help to solve
production problems early, rather than later in the studio or on location,
when unanticipated changes are very expensive in either real dollars or lost
time (both the same really in a professional setting).
The issues you have been struggling with in this thread: what kind of
camera, can I shoot it in a room with an 8-foot ceiling, single camera or
multi-camera production, etc., are the wrong things to consider first, when
contemplating a product introduction video. What's wrong with thinking
about this stuff first? It is likely that you will allow the technology and
working practices you decide on to dictate the way you tell the story,
rather than the other way around. Get a writer. Produce a script. Then,
figure our whether you are going to have professionals shoot and edit the
project in a week or so, or whether you are going to spend 6-months trying
to do it yourself, having to learn everything from lighting technique, to
camera operation, to video editing, to graphics creation, to a hundred other
things along the way. If you do that, the success of your very nifty
product will still depend on a (video production) student's first project.
Those are odds best left to people who believe that buying lottery tickets
is good long term financial planning.
Steve King
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