Posted by Terry Pinnell on 10/07/05 07:38

Frank <frank@nojunkmail.humanvalues.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 09:38:53 +0100, in 'rec.video.desktop',
>in article <Re: Cannot erase DVD-RW>,
>Terry Pinnell <terrypin@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>>>And stop using packet writing, please.
>>
>>You've jumped straight up to a technical level presently beyond me!
>
>Sorry, didn't mean to do that, really.
>
>>As
>>you make this same recommendation several times, could you further
>>clarify what you mean please? I'm not consciously/deliberately 'using
>>packet writing', so I need to know how to stop it in practice.
>
>I'm by no means expert in this area, as I've disabled Nero's ability
>to do packet writing on my systems by virtue of the fact that I've
>used MSConfig to disable loading of the Nero packet writing driver at
>boot-time. Thus, even though the InCD program itself is still
>installed, any attempt to use it fails with the issuance of an error
>message informing me that the required packet writing driver isn't
>loaded into memory.

Do you mean this startup entry?
C:\Program Files\ahead\InCD\InCD.exe
I use other utilities instead of MSConfig to manage my startup
entries, such as StartupCop and Startup CPL, as I prefer their user
interfaces. (And changes don't invoke constant reminders that I'm
doing something special <g>.) As mentioned earlier, I have disabled
that for time being at least.

BTW, I hadn't thought it would be involved in any DVD burning. I'd
rather naively assumed it was simply enabling me to use my other
drive, a CD RW drive, to copy and transfer files in a very convenient
fashion. Rather like the similar built-in facility in WinXP itself,
which I had vaguely understood to be inferior to inCD in some ways.

>By using MSConfig to prevent the driver from loading at boot-time,
>I've effectively killed Nero's ability to use the facility.

Assuming the answer above is Yes, then so am I now. Any tests I report
will be with inCD disabled. (I checked Task Manager to confirm it is
no longer present in the Process list.) Of course, this means that I
shall miss its convenience for a while. One use is shuffling stuff to
and from my wife's XP PC and my shed/workshop W98 PC - although
recently I've hit some sort of compatibility problems with both of
those PCs. It seems astonishing to me that one version of inCD is
apparently not reliably compatible with another!

>>Is packet-writing synonymous with 'UDF'?
>
>Yes and no. Packet writing, as far as I know, always uses the UDF file
>system but that isn't saying much because virtually all DVDs use the
>UDF file system, although there are some significant differences
>between various versions of UDF.
>
>>Which inCD uses in my other
>>CD0RW drive? (I've removed that disc and stopped inCD for these tests
>>as you recommended.) But presumably that's not the issue here, and the
>>implication of those IsoBuster analyses is that my source DVD discs
>>contain content which has been 'packet written'? If so what in
>>practical terms can I do about that?
>
>Preventing the Nero packet writing driver from loading at boot-time is
>a big step and should prevent all of the programs contained within the
>Nero software package from using packet writing. Whether or not you
>have any other programs on your system which use packet writing and
>whether or not those other programs might or might not install their
>own packet writing drivers, I don't know. This is where the output
>from Nero InfoTool comes in handy.

And IsoBuster? ("This is a packet written disc...")

>>Must I abandon my main commercial
>>program used so far for making my DVD movies, MemoriesOnTV?
>
>I wish I knew whether MemoriesOnTV uses packet writing, but I don't.
>I've never used the program.

I've just had Codejam's reply to my specific query about that, and the
answer is that it does not.

>>Even if I
>>was willing to do that, is there a specific set of programs guaranteed
>>*not* to use 'packet-writing'?
>
>I would think that information would have to be gathered on a program
>by program basis.
>
>>Does Nero Express (and the other Nero
>>programs apart from inCD) not use it at all?
>
>As far as I know they don't. If you're burning discs with MemoriesOnTV
>then maybe that's what's happening, I don't know.

See above.

>If MemoriesOnTV has the ability to write a DVD-Video image (the
>AUDIO_TS and VIDEO_TS directories and their contents) to your hard
>disk drive, then you might try that. Then use Nero Burning ROM to burn
>the actual disc (in DVD-Video format, of course) using the DVD-Video
>image (the AUDIO_TS and VIDEO_TS directories and their contents) on
>your hard drive as the source. That way you're guaranteeing that
>packet writing isn't being used. A disc created in this manner,
>assuming that the media used isn't defective or somehow incompatible
>with your burner, should play just fine on your computer DVD drive and
>on most telly-attached DVD players as well.
>
>IsoBuster should also have the ability to read the contents of the
>AUDIO_TS and VIDEO_TS directories on your hard disk drive and burn it
>to a DVD+/- R/RW disc as well.

Could you possibly set me off on the right direction on doing that
please? IOW, effectively using IsoBuster as a DVD player?

I far prefer learning by doing, i.e. by practical examples, and so far
I've not found IsoBuster's Help useful. Seems to assume I already
*know* all the background and terminology! What I need is a set of
step-by-step Beginners How To Guides. Such as 'How to try recovering a
zapped disc', 'How to play a disc's contents', 'How to confirm beyond
doubt that a disc is OK', etc.

BTW, I now have some fresh DVD-RW and DVD+RW discs to experiment with.
But I aim to take this fairly slowly, at least until I understand the
*cause* of all my recent coaster-making failures.

>>>>#2 BAD?
>>>>Contents = MoT movie (video/audio) Family tree
>>>>Lounge DVD player? YES
>>>>PC PowerDVD? NO
>>>>IsoBuster displays: Open Session 1
>>>>Track 01 0 4.38 GB
>>>>Surface scan initial message: "This is a packet written disc. Errors
>>>>are not abnormal..."
>>>>Surface scan results: About 46,000 errors when canceled at 2%
>>>>Question: Why can it play in lounge without any apparent flaws?
>>>
>>>Bad disc, or at least marginal. Close the session and re-test in
>>>IsoBuster.
>>
>>Do you simply mean close and re-open IsoBuster? This term 'session' is
>>still not one I really grasp. (I'd rather not *have* to grasp it!)
>
>No, single session or multi-session is a choice made when you first
>burn a given disc.

So what exactly do you mean by 'Close the session and re-test in
IsoBuster' please? Do you mean
- close IsoBuster
- Open Nero Express (which is effectively just Nero Burning ROM 6 with
a dumbed down interface)
- Then do something...

>>>What sort of player (make and model) do you have in the
>>>lounge?
>>Philips DVD757VR (a 'combo', with both DVD and VCR facilities).
>
>Okay, I'll have to look that one up.

It seems pretty reliable.

>>>Also, how much drinking do you do in the lounge, as that may
>>>have a bearing on the results? (Just kidding about the drinking
>>>question.)
>>
>>Never a drop before 7am.
>
>Good chap!
>
>>>>#3 GOOD?
>>>>Contents = MoT movie (video/audio) Competa; Les Estables
>>>>Lounge DVD player? YES
>>>>PC PowerDVD? YES
>>>>Surface scan results: [DVD-RW:RITEK000V11A]
>>>>No physical errors encountered. Your disc is still in good shape.
>>>
>>>Sounds like a good disc to me. Would it be correct for me to say that
>>>this disc ia a) finalized (or was perhaps not multi-session to begin
>>>with) and b) wasn't packet-written?
>>>
>>>>#4 BAD
>>>>Contents = MoT movie (video/audio) Cologne
>>>>Lounge DVD player? YES (recheck quality)
>>>>PC PowerDVD? YES but keeps stopping
>>>>Surface scan initial message: "This is a packet written disc. Errors
>>>>are not abnormal..."
>>>>Surface scan results: Large number, but froze at 93%
>>>
>>>Sounds like another bad disc. And stop using packet writing, please.
>>
>>Disc dumped. See above re packet-writing.
>>
>>
>>>>#5 BAD
>>>>Contents = Short MPG movie (video/audio) LED circuit demo
>>>>Lounge DVD player? NO
>>>>PC PowerDVD? NO
>>>>IsoBuster displays: Open Session 1
>>>>Track 01 0 4.38 GB
>>>>Surface scan initial message: "This is a packet written disc. Errors
>>>>are not abnormal..."
>>>>Surface scan results: 46 errors, but sort of froze at 31%, so
>>>>unreliable result.
>>>
>>>Sounds like another bad disc. And stop using packet writing, please.
>>
>>Disc dumped. See above re packet-writing.
>>
>>>>#6 GOOD?
>>>>Contents = MoT movie (video/audio) Cologne
>>>>Lounge DVD player? YES
>>>>PC PowerDVD? YES
>>>>Surface scan results: [DVD-RW:RITEK000V11A]
>>>>No physical errors encountered. Your disc is still in good shape.
>>>
>>>Looks to me like a good disc.
>>
>>I've copied it to a Ritek DVD-R 4X, so that I can now risk *treating*
>>it like a 'good' disc. More on that later.
>>
>>
>>>>#7 GOOD?
>>>>Contents = Blank
>>>>Lounge DVD player? NO
>>>>PC PowerDVD? NO
>>>>IsoBuster displays: Track 01
>>>>0 0.00 KB 0
>>>>Surface scan results: [DVD-RW:RITEK000V11A]
>>>>No physical errors encountered. Your disc is still in good shape.
>>>
>>>Looks like a good unused disc, or one that was used and then
>>>successfully erased.
>>
>>That was my tentative diagnosis too - there's hope for me yet!
>
>I wish that I could say that for all of us!
>
>>>>#8 GOOD
>>>>Contents = MoT movie (video/audio) Ethan 1st 6 Months
>>>>Lounge DVD player? YES
>>>>PC PowerDVD? YES
>>>>Surface scan results: [DVD-RW:RITEK000V11A]
>>>>No physical errors encountered. Your disc is still in good shape.
>>>
>>>Looks like another good disc. If you want to keep it that way, do not
>>>attempt to write any additional data to it, although I suspect that it
>>>didn't begin life as a multi-session disc anyway, but that's just a
>>>guess.
>>
>>This is another murky area for me. How can I tell for sure whether it
>>is a 'multi-session disc'? What *can* I safely do with it?
>
>If you had the full retail version of Nero 6 Ultra Edition, you would
>see the ability to select single session versus multi-session options
>when you first go to burn a disc. I'm not sure where to tell you to
>look in the OEM version that you're using. I haven't used an OEM
>version of Nero in several years. The last time I did it was a copy
>that I received bundled with a USB CD burner. Version 5.5.something as
>I recall.
>
>>>>#9 BAD
>>>>Contents =
>>>>Lounge DVD player? NO
>>>>PC PowerDVD? NO
>>>>IsoBuster displays: Open Session 1
>>>>Track 01 0 4.38 GB
>>>>Surface scan initial message: "This is a packet written disc. Errors
>>>>are not abnormal..."
>>>>Surface scan results: About 48,000 errors when canceled at 2%
>>>
>>>Bad disc, or at least marginal. Close the session and re-test in
>>>IsoBuster.
>>
>>Disc dumped. See my query above re 'closing session'.
>>
>>>>#10 BAD?
>>>>Contents = MoT movie (video/audio) Italian Holiday (draft 1)
>>>>Lounge DVD player? YES
>>>>PC PowerDVD? NO (There's a brief flash of the OLD over-writen menu,
>>>>not seen on lounge player.)
>>>>IsoBuster displays: Open Session 1
>>>>Track 01 0 4.38 GB
>>>>Surface scan initial message: "This is a packet written disc. Errors
>>>>are not abnormal..."
>>>>Surface scan results: (POSTPONED)
>>>>Question: Why can it play in lounge without any apparent flaws?
>>>
>>>It plays in your Lounge DVD player because that player is using
>>>somewhat different logic than the PowerDVD player program on your PC.
>>>This isn't much different a situation than the playback
>>>incompatibilities that one normally encounters when playing burned
>>>DVD-Video discs on different (telly-attached) set top DVD players.
>>>
>>>In summary, although I think that you may have gotten some bad discs
>>>in your package of ten,
>>
>>Yes, Ritek seems at best 'middling; and I've seen some reports that
>>they were downright poor at one time.
>
>And I seem to recall seeing lots of reports a few years ago from a
>number of sources about how good Ritek discs were. The trouble is that
>even a single manufacturer can have multiple plants and produce discs
>of varying quality from those different plants, not to mention that a
>manufacturer can, and sometimes does, change dyes over time so that a
>brand of discs which worked well for a given person will suddenly not
>work so well the next time a new package of discs is purchased even
>when the individual involved (the victim, one might say) hasn't
>changed a single thing, hardware or software-wise on their system.
>
>>>I also think that some of the problems you're
>>>seeing could have been avoided by finding an author/burn procedure
>>>which works in your particular setup and sticking to it.
>>
>>Agreed, but I'm not sure about the practical implications of that?
>
>Well it's just about establishing a workflow which has been shown to
>work, and then sticking to it, and not changing anything on your
>system which might upset the apple cart, such as installing a disc
>burning application which installs its own lower-level drivers which
>happen to conflict with one or more of the drivers already installed
>on the system, thereby breaking the system's ability to reliably burn
>discs and causing the grief and aggravation that you're experiencing.
>
>>>Also, I would
>>>suggest not using packet writing. It's simply not reliable on some
>>>systems.
>>
>>Agreed again, but see my earlier request for clarification.
>
>As mentioned, since I'm not familiar with MoT, I can't address it.
>
>>I've just emailed Codejam, developers of MoT (Singapore), to ask them
>>whether MoT uses packet-writing.
>
>Excellent. I sincerely hope that you get a technically accurate answer
>from them.
>
>>>Also, if you happen to have any other standalone DVD players
>>>in the house, or any other computers with DVD drives (even if they are
>>>just DVD-ROM drives and not writers) test all important discs in them
>>>as well before you consider a given project to be complete and delete
>>>the original source files.
>>>
>>>It's some extra work, but when I have an important DVD-Video disc to
>>>give to someone, I test it in three different standalone DVD players
>>>and two different computer DVD drives. Also, I burn two copies of the
>>>material, one on DVD-R media and another on DVD+R media, to help
>>>increase the probability that the recipient will be able to
>>>successfully play the disc, or at least one of them. I also test both
>>>discs in IsoBuster to ensure that they are error free. I do this in
>>>two different DVD drives. I test DVD-ROM (data) discs as well, using
>>>the same procedures as above, except not in standalone DVD players, of
>>>course.
>>
>>Many thanks for tutoring me on this. Hope you'll sustain the patience
>>a while longer <g>.
>
>I'll try, but I have a failing cooling fan in my primary system which
>I may have to attend to. The system has six internal hard disk drives
>so it's imperative that I keep it well ventilated.

I just fixed a similar problem that seemed triggered by the addition
of my third HD. (That's the last; no room for any more. Your case must
be cavernous.) I removed the 60mm CPU fan, removed all the dust,
peeled off the label on the fixed side, and gave the bearing a drop of
light oil. That quitened it OK.

>>Unfortunately, I have only the one DVD player, and one DVD-capable PC
>>in the house. So your exceptional precautions are not possible here.
>>Given my relatively sparse recording output, not sure I'd want to
>>invest that *time* anyway to be honest.
>
>Understand. The steps I take are just to avoid problems later. I'm in
>New York and when I mail a disc to someone across the country in Los
>Angeles, for example, I don't want to receive an e-mail or a telephone
>call a few days later informing me that the disc isn't playable on
>their computer or their DVD player. While fully cognizant of the fact
>that this could happen regardless of any steps that I take, I none the
>less try to minimize the possibility.
>
>>It's salutary evidence of the primitive/fragile state of the
>>technology, don't you think?
>
>Yes, I totally agree, and unfortunately I really don't see it
>improving much, at least in the near term.
>
>>Imagine the analogous scenario of writing
>>a letter, say 50 years ago. Appropriate measures might be documented
>>thus:
>>1. Use at least 2 typewriters, each with 2 different brands of paper
>>2. Ensure that 3 people inspect the each of the 4 letters, under the
>>following forms of illumination
>> - daylight
>> - filament lamp light
>> - fluorescent light
>>3. When satisfied, make two sets of copies of all 4 letters, and store
>>one in complete darkness and deposit the other set in your bank.
>>4. Post the 4 letters in 4 different post-boxes, spread over 2 days.
>>
>>Although the parallel breaks down on the cost aspect: DVD recording is
>>just that bit more expensive <g>.
>
>I truly like your analogy. We should send a copy to all purveyors of
>DVD drives, DVD players, DVD burners, media manufacturers, etc., as if
>they would care. Ha!

--
Terry, West Sussex, UK

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