Posted by Little Red Hen on 12/16/06 12:17

"Max Haltermann" <maxhalt@hugonet.com.au> wrote in message
news:em0kvs$5kp$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au...
>
> "Little Red Hen" <whodunnit@mysteryl.com> wrote in message
> news:RMLgh.9042$HU.92@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>
>>>>>>>>> Max Haltermann wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When I make a DVD from a Winfast2000H DTVcapture card
>>>>>>>>>> the playback from a stand alone DVD player to a 68cm 4:3 TV is
>>>>>>>>>> about 20%
>>>>>>>>>> smaller than the TV's screen. [i.e., there
>>>>>>>>>> all black borders on all sides of the picture]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How does the original captured signal look on a computer? Does it
>>>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>>>> have the black bars there? (Is the original signal in 12P16
>>>>>>>>> format?) Yes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for the pointer re aspect ratio terms.
>>>>>>>> As I wrote in my first posting, the transmitted signal of all local
>>>>>>>> DTV
>>>>>>>> stations has 4:3 images embedded in a 16:9 transmission. Format
>>>>>>>> 12P16
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> VideoRedo File info says 16:9 and image 720:576 (normal PAL
>>>>>>>> format).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This makes sense for the DTV stations, as this way they provide
>>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>>> main
>>>>>>>> aspect ratios for the end user. The end user selects 4:3 or 16:9 on
>>>>>>>> the set top
>>>>>>>> box this, as I see it, sets the correct parameters for the DIGITAL
>>>>>>>> TO ANALOG DECODER.
>>>>>>>> In other words, the analog image in the right format and dimensions
>>>>>>>> for display on a TV screen is created outside the digital
>>>>>>>> environment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So the question still is: How can one get a full hight and full
>>>>>>>> width 4:3 display from
>>>>>>>> the raw digital TV transmissions on to DVD or onto a TV screen,
>>>>>>>> seeing there is no D/A conversion or decoding involved?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Max.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> See here for an explanation of the formats and their names:
>>>>>>>>> <http://google.com/groups?selm=a96fma$kj6$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> znark
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Max I assume you have a 4:3 TV or Monitor? Either way in making a
>>>>>>> DVD
>>>>>>> you need to change the flag in the ifo files to tell the DVD player
>>>>>>> to present a full screen presentation during playback. If the ifo
>>>>>>> file has letterbox ticked as well as pan an scan you will get the
>>>>>>> so-called postage stamp view., ie black all around the 4:3 image. My
>>>>>>> friend has the same card as you and I have the Dvico HDTV card and
>>>>>>> my Topfield PVR5000. Al I do is edit the captured file and then make
>>>>>>> a DVD (to harddisk) then edit the ifo files and then burn using
>>>>>>> Nero.
>>>>>>> As I said in my other post it takes all of 20 seconds to make the
>>>>>>> edit in IFOEdit. Then all my DVD's ex Oz DTV that are 4:3 aspect
>>>>>>> ratio playback full screen on my 4:3 TV with no black borders and
>>>>>>> full vertical screen with black bars either side on my 16:9 LCD.
>>>>>>> Just like a bought one!!!!!
>>>>>> That would be beaut if it worked in my case!!!
>>>>>> I got IFOEdit, ran it fiddled with it, said duhh a few times, (I'm 72
>>>>>> and battling a bit
>>>>>> with HiTec). Anyway eventually I found the lines of text in the
>>>>>> IFOedit display, which, when clicked on, produced this window in
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> the settings can be altered.
>>>>>> After some drama I got those files to look as below:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) VIDEO_TS.IFO file:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Video Manager Menu attributes:
>>>>>> video: MPEG-2 720x576 (PAL) (PAL 625/50) (4:3) (pan-scan)
>>>>>> Title set 1:
>>>>>> VTS_1 Video: MPEG-2 720x576 (PAL) (PAL 625/50) (4:3) (pan-scan)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) VTS_01_0.IFO file:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Title set (Movie) attributes:
>>>>>> Video: MPEG-2 720x576 (PAL) (PAL 625/50) (4:3) (pan-scan)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only thing wrong with this is, that the movie even on the pc monitor
>>>>>> still does not
>>>>>> reach edge to edge, instead it has a thick black border all around.
>>>>>> I don't like to give up but?????????
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Max.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Something is not right there Max, the frame size should be 16:9 as
>>>>> Australian DTV for ALL transmissions are 16:9 regardless of content.,
>>>>> the stations don't transmit aspect ratio flags.
>>>>> So if 4:3 is ticked instead of 16:9 in IFOEdit that is probably the
>>>>> cause of the problem unless there is something you may have selected
>>>>> in
>>>>> your editing program to edit the mpeg file off the TV card.
>>>>>
>>>>> Take another look in IFOEdit and change any instances of 4:3 to 16:9
>>>>> (doesn't matter for the menu attributes) but make sure the video info
>>>>> is PAL and 16:9.
>>>>>
>>>>> What pan and scan in the ifo file is to tell the DVD player to expand
>>>>> the image to fit the 4:3 TV you have so what this means in effect the
>>>>> side black bars 'fall off the screen' and you have a fullscreen 4:3
>>>>> image.
>>>>> On the Topfield 5000 there is a button that is called centre cut that
>>>>> does the same thing on live transmissions as indeed most STB's.
>>>>>
>>>>> an example from a SBS Doco, actual film 4:3
>>>>>
>>>>> Video: MPEG-2 720x576 (PAL) (PAL 625/50) (16:9) (pan-scan)
>>>>
>>>> This had to be it! Well maybe, but not quite.
>>>> Getting into IFOEdit once more I got it to display exactly as per your
>>>> sample above.
>>>> The monitor screen image still looked wrong though. So I burned to
>>>> RW-DVD and tested on the player and TV.
>>>>
>>>> Set to 16:9 the image was just as before: black border all four sides.
>>>> Image in correct proportion.
>>>> 4:3 and 4:3 letterbox image is far too wide but with top and bottom
>>>> having thick black bar.
>>>>
>>>> Just to ensure my test dvd file isn't corrupted I will capture a new
>>>> lot,
>>>> SBS2 is mostly 4:3 transmission, and go through all again.
>>>> Wish me luck, please.
>>>>
>>>> Max.
>>>> P.S. Any possibility of a conventional handle like Bob or Pete or Max?
>>>>
>>> Ewen will do just fine
>
> Hi Ewen,
>
>> Is this the model you have?
>
>> http://www.leadtek.com.tw/eng/tv_tuner/overview.asp?lineid=6&pronameid=252
>>
> Yes, that's the one.
>
>> Are you sure you are recording from the digital tuner and not the analog
>> tuner?
>
> Most definitely. SBS2 is very difficult to capture with an analog tuner :)
>
> And for a change I have got good news. :))
>
> The fresh capture gave exactly the same result, but after editing
> VTS_01_0.IFO
> as you suggested the DVD-RW burned had full screen display.
>
> As to early problem movie I joined all VOB files, as I didn't have the
> original
> any more. Processed it to DVD folder, edited IFO files and got a somewhat
> wide image with black bar top and bottom. Vertically slightly squashed,
> but
> far better than the tiny image I had before.
> So thanks, Ewen. Also thanks to znark and Jukka Aho
> (I hope I got that right)
>
> There is of course still the question of 'Direct Burn to DVD'
> I think the software is lacking there by not allowing to set 4:3 burns.
> After all there would only need to be one box to be ticked to set a flag
> to ensure Pan-Scan in the IFO file is ON.
>
> As it is now, I would have a good case to return the card because of
> incorrect advertizing, after all on the box it just says:
> "Direct Burn: Capture video directly from TV signal or external video
> devices - saving both time and valuable Hard-drive space."
> There is no mention of only a rather small picture when capturing
> 4:3 movies.
> I exchanged 3 emails with Leadtek, where I suggested there should
> be a software solution. Their answer was basically over and over, that
> their software capture files as they are transmitted and that is that.
>
> Cheers all,
> Max.


Max you will find all cards give much the same result, my Dvico HDTV
produces either a TP file or an MPEG file and you still have to edit the ifo
file before burning if the source material is 4:3 as transmitted by
Australian TV stations. The problem is with our standards and not the
capture. If the stations switched flags according to source material this
would, I think, fix the problem but it would introduce other problems I'm
sure. With my Topfield I select "centre cut' which expands the postage stamp
4:3 to fill my 4:3 TV.
On my LCD 16:9 of course I have black bars either side but that's the way it
should be. Personally I would rather burn to harddisk first than do it on
the fly to disk that way I have control and that goes with my
personality!!!! I'm a bit fixed in my 70 year old ways... Ewen

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