Posted by Spex on 08/10/07 13:24

nappy wrote:
> "Spex" <No.spam@ta.com> wrote in message
> news:13bn0eusr22b8ac@corp.supernews.com...
>
>> Cue tumbleweeds
>
>
> lol.!
>
>> There was never any excuse for attacking Iraq. Saddam was a evil bastard
>> so are the Saudis why attack one and not the other. North Korea actually
>> do have weapons of mass destruction but were not attacked, why?
>>
>
> Well..I think you know the answers to all of those questions. Even if they
> don't seem rational
> But I disagree that Saddam's actions after the Gulf War did not merit
> action.
>
>
>> Israel is a so called democracy but it acts like the most evil of pariah
>> states. If it were not so closely aligned to the US is would have been
>> outcast as a rogue state of the ilk of the worst of the former Soviet
>> states.
>
> agree 100%
>
>
>
>> The PNAC is dead in the water because even the most blinkered north
>> american idiot has begun to see throurgh the spin and downright lies
>> spewed forth by the Bush regime.
>
> whoooha! Spoken like a true Brit. All of whom I have tremendous respect for.
> I will refrain from my observations about the British muslim problem out of
> respect.


I'd love to know your observations because much of the Muslim Problem is
a fiction of the right wing press or has actually been created by the
right wing press stirring up the 2 brain-cell families in the inner
cities. The Daily Mail being the chief culprit a horrendous rag by any
fair minded appraisal.

Just this week an undercover investigation into Imams spouting
anti-western propaganda has shown how freely our media can use the edit
to completely transform what was being said by certain Mosque leaders.
After the programme was broadcast the UK police began an investigation
and found that the hate-filled diatribes had been cut together from
longer passages of speech and taken completely out of context. The
police have now begun an investigation into the broadcaster (Channel 4)
and the programme maker. This irresponsible and base level journalism
is harmful on so many levels not least it alienates the moderate Muslims
that enjoy living in a multi cultural society as I do and groups them
with the minority of extremist nutjobs like Abu Hamza and crowd who are
in a distinct minority.

It is about time that we all wake up in the west and take on the
difficult decisions and take the arguments away from the
fundamentalists. Nobody can condone the suicide bombings in London or
Spain but the idiots that plan and carry out these atrocities have been
given all the necessary propaganda to recruit the naive and stupid by
the west's appalling lapses in foreign policy judgment and incredible
double standards.

How can "The West" honestly broker democracy around the world when so
quickly our own governments at the very earliest opportunity set about
instigating measures and procedures that go against the very message we
are espousing? How can we accept "Extraordinary Rendition", secret
torture facilities in 3rd party countries and the continued existence of
Guantanamo? How can we accept the chipping away of liberties of the
Patriot acts in the US and the extensions of the anti-terror laws which
have eroded much or the freedoms and way of life that was fought for in
WWII?

When will those practices that are carried out on citizens of other
countries be brought to bare on us all? By allowing these double
standards ourselves how could we complain if/when that happens?

>
>> The Bliar (sic)/Bush pact has only succeeded in killing many hundreds of
>> thousands of innocent people (750,00 is a conservative estimate),
>
>
> wow.. Spex. Not even Johns Hopkins went that far. The UN places it at less
> than 100,000. Most of whom have been killed NOT by Americans .

Not being killed directly by Americans is no excuse as I am sure you
would agree. Our countries' collective actions have enabled an
environment for these atrocities to take place. The US forces have
_not_ recorded Iraqi civilian loses with any degree of accuracy btw.
The 750,000 figure is an accepted figure. I think it is an amnesty
figure but I will check that. But that figure is increasing by 50-100
people per day? That is a conservative figure of the number of people
killed by car/suicide bomb daily. Not only that but countless thousands
have been maimed by lower limb injuries that will place a huge strain on
the economy for years to come. The injuries in Iraq have caused a
global shortage of prosthetic limbs that's how severe the problem is.

>
> The evidence is already there to see as when given
>> half a chance the Iraqi Army divides on ethnic and religious lines and
>> does not give a shit about the rule of law or "democratic" government.
>> Democracy? Nah try middle ages feudal system.
>
> They deserve freedom as much as anyone on the planet. I agree with you that
> they are not ready for it.

There are two issues here. 1. Is our system of government a shiny
example that should be exported round the world? The Palestinians
freely voted in real democratic elections but were denied their choice
because that did not fit with Israel and the US plan for the region. 2.
Is democracy even right for the Middle East when there has been zero
history of it? Why is a relatively stable feudal system or a Theocracy
less good than the system we subject ourselves to? These are questions
because I don't know myself. After all do we want a democracy like the
Russians now have? A democracy all in name but in actual fact has
reverted back to an oppressive police state where opposition parties and
critical media outlets are closed or simply disappeared.

Exporting a poor excuse for a capitalist democracy is as useful as
making Bliar a Peace envoy.

>
>
>> The New World Order will be the cancer that is the increase in Islamic
>> fundamentalism whipped up by these ill-conceived plans of a handful of
>> religious crackheads for their own self interest. Not the PNAC that Bush
>> senior was meaning when he coined the phrase.
>
> Spex. How do you really feel?
> Islamic Fundamentalism did not start with Iraq or 9/11 or even the 93 Twin
> Towers bombing. I think there is a tendency to ignore how long this has been
> going on. I am not convinced that no one should have done anything. That's
> for sure.
>
I am not ignoring the fact that the Islamic Fundamentalist cancer have
been gnawing away for some time actually since the 1950s. But it never
had the support it enjoys today. And the reason? Again it is obvious...

>
> As far as Afghanistan..
>
> Yeah. Women are in the Gov't. Girls are in School. Music and laughter are no
> longer punishable by death . There are no more mass executions in the soccer
> stadiums. And They are trying desperately to keep it going.
>

The women and girls issues is not actually correct at all. The real
depressing truth is that Women's rights in Afghanistan have not improved
since the Taliban were ousted from power. Afghanistan remains an
extremely conservative Islamic state that does not allow women to have
the rights that other women enjoy in many other parts of the Islamic world.

The Afghanistan Government's influence does not even stretch to all
parts of Kabul let alone out into the provinces. You would be hard
pressed to see any difference in life style of the average Afghan
citizen between the Taliban era and now. Apart from, of course, the
huge poppy harvest that is allowed now that was previously clamped down
on during the Taliban reign. 90% of the world's heroin output comes
from Afghanistan. Great cause for celebration they have total market
dominance!

I am certainly not condoning the Taliban but I cannot see what we have
done to improve matters for the general Afghan population or ourselves.

> Yeah. I would say it is going pretty damn well. Sure. NATO is still working
> the Taliban problem. Largely because instead of killing all of them we let
> them run like cockroaches.
>
>
The bombing people back to the stone age when they already live in the
stone age seems a little lacking in strategy. Non?

Quick Fact:______________________________________________
1,700 Rockets fired into Israel from Palestine.
17,000 high explosive shells fired into Palestine from Israel.
(UK Parliamentary select committee figures.)

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