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Posted by Spex on 10/01/06 21:09
FCP User wrote:
> In article <nJCTg.519$tN.77@trndny06>,
> "David McCall" <david_____@techshop.net> wrote:
>
>> I-Max and Omni-Max are both pretty over the top formats, and
>> Bill likely isn't very intrested in either of those either. However
>> they do get used, and people do pay premium bux to see shows
>> shot in those formats just as they have for Cinerama and the
>> various 3D (incluting I-Max 3D).
>>
>> No one is suggesting that Bill switch over to I-Max, or 4K
>> to service his corperate and comercial clients. There he is
>> better off sticking with the more bread and butter formats
>> like DV Betacam, or Digi-Beta. Before long he, and the
>> rest of us, will be forced to move into some form of
>> HD, but even here it wouldn't pay for Bill to move into 4K.
>> HDV would likely fill his niche.
>>
>> Just because a format doesn't serve your needs
>> doesn't make it rediculous.
>>
>> David
>>
>
>
> David,
>
> I think you completely missed my point.
>
> RED isn't being touted like iMax in any way shape or form. It's NOT
> being marketed to a tiny niche of ultra high end business users.
>
> Based on the prices points being tossed around (under $10k camera) it's
> being touted as bringing ultra high def to the masses. To the ordinary
> project based videomaker - professional, prosumer or even consumer.
This is a big misconception and one that Jannard is not nipping in the
bud. The "camera" is priced at $17k but that is just the body, no lens,
no viewfinder and no capture capability. A conservative estimate is
minimum $40k still cheap for a package of its capability but a long way
more than the hordes of dvxuser readers can afford or think they can!
>
> If they were promoting this in Cinematography magazine and talking about
> price points around $100k I would have no quibble with the product at
> all.
$100k might be closer to actual cost for a fully working package.
>
> At that level, all the problems I mention - storage, buying redundant
> disc arrays - whatever just aren't relevant.
>
> They are completely relevant to some young digital film maker thinking
> that they should wait around for RED to make their dreams come true.
>
> Personally, I hope the project succeeds. And that some technology comes
> along to fix the storage challenge I mention. (3-dimensional bubble
> memory anyone?)
>
> If it does' I'll be right in line to order one.
>
> But, like every other production system I've ever had to cough up hard
> cash for in the past - It's GOT to provide an end to end production
> solution makes sense for daily workflow.
They claim the have an "indie" work flow that will crush 4.5k down to 27
MB/s with wavelet compression. I think that somewhat defeats the object
of the exercise. They also say if you don't want to shoot 4.5k the
shoot 2k or 1080p or 720p but going those routes would again defeat the
object as one could simply use an existing solution for less money than
a complete RED camera package. Not to mention the work flow would be
well oiled by using something like HDCAM SR.
>
> And what I read about RED - RIGHT NOW - tells me that there's a missing
> piece.
>
The honesty of what the total cost of ownership will be, that's what I
find missing. The shear cost of an IT based work flow should not be
underestimated. Even with something simple like DVCPRO HD at a meagre
100 Mbps that's a lot of failsafe storage for a typical feature
production let alone the working drives. Scale that up to 4k
requirements and it all get horrifyingly expensive for what benefit?
The audience simply cannot resolve that sort of resolution in a moving
image, it's the reason why MPEG compression works so well. It seems to
me that there will an awful lot of cost associated capturing detail that
no one will see unless they step through the film frame by frame.
> Until then, I'm betting that XDCAM is my next step.
A far more pragmatic solution...
>
> HD/SD switchable. Variable compression to meet current and (hopefully)
> future needs in the 2-4 year window that's most critical for my
> business. And most of all, $30 dollar media (just like my DVCAM system)
> that lets me both offload current projects and go to the shelf to
> re-digitize legacy programs when clients need them altered.
>
> When RED gets there - I'm in.
>
> Not before.
>
I won't be holding my breath.
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